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From Flames To Fork, Comes Freedom • View topic - Chuck's State Of The Union

Chuck's State Of The Union

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Chuck's State Of The Union

Postby red1 » Wed May 18, 2016 7:00 am

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Re: Chuck's State Of The Union

Postby globalqss » Thu May 19, 2016 5:45 am

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Re: Chuck's State Of The Union

Postby hieplq » Thu May 19, 2016 7:36 am

I didn't know that i be on Carlos's circle. but i so pride on it.
personal i can well live with current situation of idempiere, but i get more interest when it go faster.
i want to be a part of solution than problem, so I bellow is my idea.

1. for each ticket (or group relative ticket), people (reporter, developer, tester...) have to explain clear about it.
when you get a issue, don't just report it. try to isolate condition to get it, try to figure out test case to get it.
it help developer can redo to get where to fix, test his patch.
when you develop (fix, improve, new feature) explain your step (not need so detail just outline with main step), tell about what you already test, test case you can figure out, area your code can effect, so other can easy join to review, test, share work load.
when you test it, document about test case you do, so it case re-use for later.

2. people who interest at ticket, can request build server with this ticket for test (i can take this task to temp merger ticket to build)

two step will help refine patch before Carlos review to merger to core, so save his time. it also help you show your responsibility, and get more people can join to resolver issue.
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Re: Chuck's State Of The Union

Postby hieplq » Thu May 19, 2016 7:43 am

3. before think about merger to core, you can run in your environment to make sure your solution work without issue. of course this stuff don't avoid you immediately summit patch and discuss about it.

for long time ago i follow step 1, for now i a bit follow step 1 and strict follow step 3
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Re: Chuck's State Of The Union

Postby red1 » Fri May 20, 2016 6:29 am

Deepak skyped me for a long 1 and the half hours explaining his statement and convinced me he worded his reply wrongly as quoted above. I requested him to make that apology direct to Carlos Ruiz, be ready to be smacked on the head, then move on. :)
I also like to explain when during the skype session, Deepak showed me commits done by Diego Ruiz as to mean Diego has commit rights and therefore due to special treatment. I told him abit about our history but i like to now give a fuller rendering and on the record.

1. Commit rights does not mean it is a right or privilege. This was discussed heavily throughout our history since September 2006 when we forked. It was even discussed in Berlin in 2009 under a dedicated presentation by Carlos Ruiz explaining the damage done by wrongful commits from Libero project costing three years of instability to the trunk.

2. We then collectively (with Libero team included) agreed to a two tier review system. I was in the 2nd tier, but the commits still do not go to a clear veto control of a lead maintainer. I.e. if the lead maintainer was to revert, another lesser member can question him and this caused the same flame again.

3. In the end Carlos withdrew from acting as Technical Leader and lead maintainer but this created a crisis in which Kai Schaeffer then proposed a new approach where Carlos is to be elected formally, paid for his maintainer role. Though Carlos is not about the money, he finally agreed.

4. You guessed it, the flames continue. And this time Carlos allowed his tenure to lapse without seeking reelection. I also withdrew after consulting with Heng Sin privately.

5. Heng Sin gave me some personal advice on how FOSS projects are run elsewhere. 'As a direct commiter, if you break once, you are warned, and you should not break it again. If you break it one more time, expect to be removed by the leader. And the leader must be firm.' It is a benevolent dictatorship. We never do that. I mean i as the overall leader did not enforce that to the peers. I kept the democratic card and even try to put Carlos in the court under trial as we also instituted a 5 member petition to question the lead maintainer.

6. But Heng Sin in such instances withdrew from the project and i always regard that as severe crisis and desist to institute further democratic reform as it is meaningless if either these two vanguard of our code withdrew.

7. Kai Schaeffer met me in Kuala Lumpur on his own during one of the crisis and remarked that ADeV will take over, putting out a fund and advertising for developer while remarking Hengsin is just a developer.

8. When the ADeV team took over, reviews were bad, and even credit copyright statements were not checked resulting in cases where Carlos name was removed from his own code. Another flaming war ensued as the other side refused to revert and even wrote to FSF and ZK projects seeking for judgement that they are right.

9. While I was in Austria end of 2011, Carlos, thru Skype, gave me his most severe stand on the whole matter. He will closed up completely to avoid further abuse of his work as peers are not defending him. I posted a no-confident vote against ADeV admin in SF forum and won but felt this is a repeat of 2009 all over again. I then requested Thomas Bayen to pay for my trip to Bogota to sit down with Carlos for a final solution.

10. This resulted in the permanent split and iDempiere was born this time in absolute benevolent dictatorship under Carlos and Heng Sin. This was the perfect solution that led us to fantastic heights, scored awards and still counting, while the rest began to wane and decay.

11. Krefeld, home of Thomas Bayen then became our new base with 2 successful iDempiere conferences.

12. Chuck and Deepak both attended last year's conference, raised this issue, fully explained by Carlos, agreed with committee, but you guessed it, no one else done anything.

13. Then came Chuck's so called State of the Union address.

In summing up, there is a paramount leader in the project and we all know who he is. He is a benevolent dictator with his circle of trust which whoever commits can rest assured he has the blessing from a review process as proven in the mud of history. The leader himself always seek out peers to review his own work.

Linus Torvalds knew this issue too well, and gave a long talk explaining why he created GIT. We knew this is it, and became just a GIT (Mercurial) clone with a community gravitating around it. Others are free to fork and invited to do so. All commercial dreams have to be in the form of distros from any fork.

I have to reiterate here that many do not understand how FOSS projects are actually done and which are marbles and which are gems. I suggest they go read the manuals and books on it before they approach this subject further. Least of all do not come back trying to give us some advice when you had no idea in the previous one.

Fortunately, we have instituted fully Linus' GIT and Circle Of Trust convention where we mutually agreed to disallow any more flame or poison to disrupt this most successful run of the Compiere forks from beginning 2012 till now. Among our convention is not to answer inflammable posts outside this rant forum. Any encroachment of such into our google group will be immediately banned by us. As Linus advised, it is better to be blunt than be sorry later for a big mess.
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Re: Chuck's State Of The Union

Postby globalqss » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:09 am

Redhuan, unfortunately I have not seen the public apology that Deepak promised to deliver.
As I told you I think Deepak was maliciously trying to mislead you about that. Let me explain why:

What Deepak showed to you is something like this, but in eclipse:


And I think he was trying to intentionally mislead you, because Deepak knows very well how that developer name ends there, if that's the case then Deepak's also would have commit rights, as his name search shows:


And Deepak is very clear about how his name ends in the repository even when he doesn't have commit permissions, one example here:
Ticket https://idempiere.atlassian.net/browse/IDEMPIERE-2675
Deepak adds into the ticket this patch: https://idempiere.atlassian.net/secure/ ... 75_1.patch

If you see the patch it comes with the developer assigned:
# User dpansheriya

And as I'm a big fan of credit attribution, then I integrate the commit as sent by the developer (or assigning developer name with his permission) whenever possible:
https://bitbucket.org/idempiere/idempie ... 8911dd3c3d

That's how it works and mostly all developers know about that and send the patches with their name on it.

Regards,

Carlos Ruiz
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Re: Chuck's State Of The Union

Postby red1 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:51 am

Yes, this is what people do not get about us as opposed to the other project. There people can hide code and credit or even steal them but are defiant maintaining they are right and we are wrong. Here, we are practicing the opposite and then people think all sorts of things without asking for clarification. The onus or burden of argument should be on the one making those allegations, not us who are making something work really well. If someone says your project or management has an issue, they should prove it with fair analysis and comparisons with alternatives they have. Otherwise they been unfair to others.

What if i make allegations against his 'pay for training club that hides code unless you pay for the membership first''? Or course he will not see my point of view. Thus i do not make such allegations directly and openly but in principle citing proper references. Anyway i do not see his code as important. Your team or my team can make better if we want but we were playing fair and letting everyone into the game or be part of the family.

If they wish to say 'his family are practically the only people who can directly commit to iDempiere', then give the proof instead of slandering publicly. And they do not want to apologize for it, but expect us to apologize for defending ourselves. This breaks down communal spirit and respect. Like Linus Torvalds once said to take on a flame starter, 'Bring em on'.
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