Thread deleted -> Is Red1 just Dictator or Nazi?

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Thread deleted -> Is Red1 just Dictator or Nazi?

Postby globalqss » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:34 am

This thread - showing the ineptness of actual CC - was deleted from sourceforge forums, for historic purposes I consider it must be restored in a forum where deletions don't happen.

The original thread used to be at:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/adempi ... ic/4863875

I asked reasons of deletion here:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/adempi ... ic/5015772

And a lame excuse was given stating red1 asked for deletion, when 2 messages below he stated that he would not deleted it.

Here is the content restored from e-mail archives:


_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11
By: mark_o

@Red1.
Now you went a huge step too far. You have really pissed me off by your message
to Thomas on his User Page.

[url]http://www.adempiere.com/User:Tbayen#From_the_Dictator.2C_i_mean_Developer[
/url]

It's one thing if you play with your Panzers privatly in yout little farm, but
it's really another thing writing a Hitler salute into our community wiki. You
are disgusting.

This is a forbidden action by law in Germany and Austria and can be prosecuted
with custodial sentence up to 3 years. I demand you to delete this Nazi Propaganda
from our wiki immediatly. If you don't want to do it, talk to your friend Thomas,
I believe he can explain to you how serious your action is.

Besides this I will formly apply to ADeV Board not to meet with somebody who
is sympathizing with Nazis.

Mark

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: nwessel

Hi,

I have deleted the text containing the hitler salute because the server is located
in Germany and to avoid that german authorities force us to shut down adempiere.com
wiki as Red1's text is clearly against the law.

Norbert

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: fina

Dear Norbert,

Do you support the idea to have "Internal Discussions" on internal (members
only) forum/group? (Even to avoid such kind of problems).

Thanks. admin@FINA

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By:

@Red1. Now you went a huge step too far. You have really pissed me off
by your message to Thomas on his User Page.
http://www.adempiere.com/User:Tbayen#Fr ... _Developer It's
one thing if you play with your Panzers privatly in yout little farm, but it's
really another thing writing a Hitler salute into our community wiki. You are
disgusting. This is a forbidden action by law in Germany and Austria and can
be prosecuted with custodial sentence up to 3 years. I demand you to delete
this Nazi Propaganda from our wiki immediatly. If you don't want to do it, talk
to your friend Thomas, I believe he can explain to you how serious your action
is. Besides this I will formly apply to ADeV Board not to meet with somebody
who is sympathizing with Nazis.


Don't understand...Nazi Propaganda ?

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: red1

Damn it! I should asked the fat lady behind the counter before i submitted
my Einwanderung form for a work permit here. I did not know it was for
the wrong political party. Now i will get 3 years instead of 1 year to stay
here. Come to think of it, that will take right away instead of the 6 months
waiting for their slow bureaucracy to reply!

Alright Officer @Mark and Officer @Norbert. I duly surrender to the long arm
of the law.

But in case they throw me out, i hope to still meet up, even though you wrote
me an email just now cancelling and referring to this link. Come on, i did not
write this thread nor its dramatic topic title. It was your Metas office mate,
@Mark.

By the way, Kai told me that this project has grown beyond a single dictator
i mean me. Likewise i wish to tell you that this project has grown beyond a
single company - yours.

In case you still refuse to meet, then i will have to return to the forums as
that is the only option left. Even about hosting http://www.adempiere.com if Germany
finds it offensive, i would like to suggest Japan, oh no, did i mention Japan?!
Never mind we open to volunteers out there who wish to help us host our wiki.
I am sure there are others. It cannot just be Germany.

I hate this country, sorry! i mean i hate the wiki staying here. :)

red1

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: teo_sarca

Hi all,

With the risk that i will be totally offtopic, i would like to express opinion
with the hope that is the last time when i need to do it on this topic.

Integrating in world wide communities (any kind of them, not only IT focused
ones) can be a tough job sometimes. Beside all other challenges, it's important
to be open and eager to learn about their cultures and their believes because
under those SF nicknames are people and they have feelings.

Think that some references to Natzi period and symbols, or to some dictatorial
regims can bring some ugly feelings and memories to some of them. Think that
some of them have relatives that died in those regims, other have relatives
that were in jail in those times, other lost all their goods, others were humiliated
and no human rights were respected, others are still shaking relative's hands
and can't stop observing the tattooed number on their arm. Other have relatives
that are political refugees from territories occupied by some other empires
that Red1 quoted in his previous posts.

For them, Red1 jokes are not funny and it will never be funny.

And in some other post I've read that Red1 will go to police to ask if his actions
are legal or not. Not sure if this is the right institution for handling this
subject, but I consider that this is the smallest issue of this case. Giving
an argument like this is totally **defiant** for those people. I remember what
my father told me when i was a child "laws were invented for those who do not
have common sense" (of course is exaggerated for the purpose to underline the
essential).

I am sure that nobody can stop anybody to have their personal affinities, even
for such regimes, but please keep them down in your heart. We don't have and
we *don't need* Orwell's thoughts police, but Red1 has the responsibility (as
us all) to not associate the image of this project and people involved in this
project with such symbols.
What he already did is a big dirt spot on project face, then we will struggle
to clean it in time.

Not sure what Red1 understood or what he learned from the countries which he
visited, but as it seems that Germany is his current land of choice, i would
like to remind him that German people history did not start in 1930 nor it end
it in 1945. Same thing applies for other countries and cultures he offended
with his "funny" jokes.

I would liked to propose some actions or something in order to put us on the
right track, but I am too disgusted to do this now and I also think is right
to not be biased by my current feelings.

I hope community can see how severe are his actions and I hope community can
collaborate to put the project back on the right track. Things like this shall
never ever ever happen again.

Best regards,
Teo Sarca

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: raoufmazouz

Mark,

I think you done too much and that you dramatize things to confuse the true
problem that our community live.

I am ashamed for you to treat my friend Red1 like Nazis I am ashamed for you
to use methods of slander and personal attacks to cover their tracks. You disgust
me and you make me want to Vomit.

This crisis in the community is very serious and shame on you to divert the
problem to be a personal attack on Red1 or carlos.

I ask you solemnly to stop all this and find a way out of this crisis.

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: tbayen

Hello,

i really (really!) did not want to mention the war after I gave my arguments
to the discussion thread where they belonged to. But it is my User page you
are talking of and if I follow you it is my name ands my honour that is drawn
to dirt and - I began the joke that is escalating here. And someone is doing
a big fault.

How did it happen?

I want to explain how it came: Since last week I tried hard to become myself
out of politics. I wrote to Tobi42 that I did not want to become a collateral
damage. I CCed it to nwessel (but he did not answer me directly). I just wanted
to learn about ADempiere. At our workshop in Kempten I wrote an invitation to
like-minded people to meet with me, Volker, Dieter and red1 (and each other):

https://sourceforge.net/projects/adempi ... ic/4857827

I had not really expected that the hoary members of the german community answered
me something like "Hey! It's nice that you do something to bring together community
members and to bring live to it! Thanks for the invitation! We will visit you
and teach you something to make the workshop even better! Come to Bonn and do
it here!". But instead I got a silly (Google translate said this for "zickig")
answer about me mentioning Red1 as the project founder.

The nerves of Norbert as a CC Team member must be really bare. I just mentioned
"Red1" and he had to answer in this way. I decided to answer with a joke of
Monty Python "Don't mention the war" which I'm sure everyone in germany knows.

Red1 did not understand this answer the first way and I tried to explain him
the joke. Perhaps I did wrong and perhaps he got the impression that making
jokes about the war and hitler is a funny sport in germany (@ Red1: For germans
it's part of the joke that it were british people that did it - we would not
allow this to ourselves). So Yes - perhaps it was my fault. You can not expect
from a malaysian to understand the sharp borders of german sensitivity to our
history. And you have the right to see my answer as a bad joke.

But besides this story it was very clear that he was joking while writing
to my User page. This is not forbidden by law in germany as it is not forbidden
to show the Monty Python sketch in Television. It was a joke of bad taste and
someone should tell him that his jokes about war have a different meaning for
germans than for others. I am glad that it is not more on my page but it is
also ok that it is part of the history of that page (in any sense).

Why am I writing all this when people are just upset about rubbish? -
Let me explain to the community:

While meeting with Red1 I talked to him about meeting with the opponents face
to face will be a good idea. I offered my hospitality to meet in Krefeld or
to drive him to Bonn. All this discussion is so unbelievable to me that I had
the naive thought that a meeting of adult people would end this Kindergarten.
Also I was very interested in meeting you and to hear your side.

Now I have to tell the community that I got a mail that you, nwessel, cancelled
the meeeting and as a reason gave a link to this childish thread.

You behave straight to Godwin's Law. I really do not want to let you get
away with this. Not in my name!
For me it seems that you are trying to destroy
the reputation of a former friend of yours. You want to cancel the discussion
and you want to avoid meeting with Red1. You even want to avoid discussing with
Red1.
You tried the same with the Thread about "Domain abuse". You try to
accuse him such a bad crime (first a "community crime" and if that did not help
a "nazi crime") that you do not have to discuss with him any more. But you really
should!!!

* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%E2%80%99s_law
* http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi-Vergleich

(As I know this sort of discussions the next thing will be to blame him of
pedophilia. I wanted to mention this word first just to have done it before
you will.)


If the situation were not so bad I would really laugh about your poor tries
to destroy Red1. But this all is not about Red1. It is about the constitution
of the Community. It is your damned duty as the CC team to solve such conflicts
not to take part in them. As I understood it is the main reason the CC Team
exists. CC Team is doing a bad job in this. That's all of it!

It is still time for you to explain your side. But I will no more follow your
funny accusations. And if the persons who act in this way tell me that Carlos
had done a bad job as PMC in the past I will be very cautious about believing
this without further testify.

a very upset Thomas

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Teo,

Stop playing on the feelings it will not work here. anyone know the history
and the tragedies that people have suffered.

Remaining focused on our community crisis and trying to find a smooth solution.
because it was too last! do not you think.

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: nwessel

Hi Thomas,

I have asked red1 privately if we can meet with four eyes to discuss if there
is a solution to this.
I cancelled the invitation privately it because I can not do it under this
circumstances.

Now you and red1 go with it to the forum.

Think about it for a second...

Best regards,
Norbert

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: tbayen

Hi Norbert,

I was very upset about the topic of this thread. If I (and google translate)
found the wrong words please excuse. You as a german should know that it was
not a bad joke on a user page in a small corner of a big wiki that exceeded
the "border of german taste and law" but to write a thread with this title in
the forum everybody reads. And Mark could have asked me before using the content
from the "personal message" part of my my homepage for a campaign.

Said that I want to tell you that I "thinked about it". I did not recognize
that this message was "private". I think it were good news if the opponents
meet face to face. Red1 talked about it in in the forums (I think so). So this
information was not "private". And also it is not private if the "community
voted CC Team" cancels a meeting with such a big impact. It is an important
information that belongs to the community when the CC Team refuses to meet people
with such an important request.

I think the concepts of public and private you use have to be discussed if you
want to represent the community further.

A month ago I even did not know your name. I was a curious new member on the
forums. I asked some questions to the german community (and mostly noone answered).
I asked for commercial training for my employees (and mostly noone answerded).
Last week I told you (privately, hah!) I do not want to be shot in the toes
in this war. I stopped writing in the forums to not heat things up I do not
understand. Today you (Mark, but It's your colleague, isn't it?) forced me to
take a standpoint against you because you pulled me into this. I did not begin
this. I am sitting before my computer with an opened mouth and try to find out
why you are "pissing me on" (to use Marks words).

So my question stays the same: Are you really sure that somebody that is involved
in such a way is the right person to solve this issue? Or shouldn't he better
hold back himself or even withdraw?

Think about it for a second....

Thomas

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: nwessel

Hi Thomas,

for someone who is that damn new to the project you are quite much in the hot
spot.

If you were longer with the project you knew that Mark knows red1 for many years
and he hosted him at his home. None of the actors in this tragedy are just forum
accounts trying to reach political aims.
Most of the one posting actively know each for long time and some of the conflicts
get so hot BECAUSE there have a personal dimension.

This of course is difficult to see when you are new to the project.

Therefore be careful to pick a side or judge when you do not know the whole
story.

Norbert

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: tbayen

To let this all not escalate I would like to say that I still would be really
interested in drinking a beer with you, talk and laugh about Open Source jokes.
But I no longer expect the possibility that you convcince me that all CC Team
members are the right people doing the job right. (Last week I was not sure
about that.)

Thomas

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: red1

@Teo, some time ago your ex company in Romania also told me not to mention communism
but at least he calmly explained to me why, and not launch a new flame with
a difficult historical context as this one. And i appreciate your kind advice
here. So now i have to give you a bottle of vokda as a present! But please do
not suggest an expensive brand! And please only one glass. Small. Half filled.

@TBayen.
Thomas. Thank your for your eloquent defence of your.. ok, ok.. do not ever
call me 'leader' or 'dictator' or 'founding member' if the googletranslator
is not politically correct. Just call me red1 which i checked in the google
translator seems ok, as it returns 'rot' for 'red'.
But anyway your well-expressed words returned my composure. I think you are
a liar too. You told me you were not good in English!

@Norbert.
Ok, i will meet you face to face - two eyes to two eyes, in private. No bodyguards.
No translator. We will use body language. I mean no punches. Ok, just hugs.
Within a sec.

Ok, Kai can be there as moderator. I need his body, just in case.

So guys, nothing happened here, go back to your FOSS business, just some bad
day at the market. No alarm. I am not staying in any jail for 3 years (i wouldn't
mind - imagine what the memoirs of the lost [s]founding leader[/s] will read
like!)

red1
Your frrriiiiieeeennnnnddd. (so it won't show up in any googletranslator as
'gay').

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: tbayen

@red1: I told you have a sense of humor with a very bad taste and I am glad
that your sentence is no more on my userpage and you thank for my eloquent defence
of you and you call yourself my leader?!? - Perhaps your humour is not bad tasted
but crazy! :-)

SCNR

and to contribute something useful to this discussion (and throw my 2 cents
in) I will quote you:

By the way, Kai told me that this project has grown beyond a single dictator
i mean me. Likewise i wish to tell you that this project has grown beyond a
single company - yours.


Both parts of this Quote seem to have a core of wisdom to me. Perhaps Kai and
you want to open another thread (not going on with this subject line) and discuss
what will be a solution instead of discuss what will be no solution. You may
do it even private. :-)

Thomas

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Norbert,

May be that Thomas is new on the project, but he has very well summed up the
subject and I am quite agree with him.

Red1 is my friend and I will not tolerate anyone to treat him that way. shame
on them

Thanks and Regards,

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: red1

@Thomas.
I retract the statement and references you quoted. I am sorry to Kai for dragging
him into that statement. He made to me in private email.

@Raouf
Thank you been a friend when i needed most. I just want to return to normal
life in a farm with a dog, but not until i get to the bottom of this 'mess i
created'.

@Norbert
You see? I admit the mess is mine not yours. :) If we meet, i have no pre-conditions.
I retract all my stated pre-conditions. I call a [s]cease-fire[/s] or [s]truce[/s]
or whatever right word for the occasion (sorry if i screwed words).

That is why i like to meet up and see if there is a common good to work towards.
My main concern is about proper code review and acceptance of any review even
from outside the PMC/CC and project space and proper distros be it [s]iDempiere[/s]
OSGi which i think is a nice direction to move to. Everyone or many people have
invested in this project and wants to grow not with [s]West and East[/s], but
[s]one nation[/s], big [s]kick-ass[/s] unified group.

And if you allow, i want to ask about some stance that the project management
has at the moment towards me and my amigo which i have not get the chance to
ask you face to face. Is the management [s]private[/s] or it [s]needs help[/s]
or whatever, i won't know because i failed to understand via emails, forum threads
etc.

I accept a [s]blast[/s] answer here. You know me. I hate private emails. They
can shock via [s]Wikileaks[/s] [s]community vote[/s], outside perception.

Kind regards
red1
(Malaysian) <-- proud of my country

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: teo_sarca

@Raouf,

> Stop playing on the feelings it will not work here.

Ohh, it sad if this is what u understood.

> anyone know the history and the tragedies that people have suffered.

Hmm, not sure. I think our common friend, Red1 missed that history lesson. Else
I can't explain his behavior.

> Remaining focused on our community crisis and trying to find a smooth solution.
because it was too last! do not you
> think.

Well, this is what i do for a long long time and FYI this is not the first crisis.
What about you? Just popped in the middle?

Best regards,
Teo Sarca

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: globalqss

Wow, this is just a "clownerie". How low can you go today?

If you want to understand some of the below comments you can start viewing
this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xnNhzgcWTk

Just to put things in context:

* Mark (who opened this thread) is employee of Norbert, so, when he wrote:
"Besides this I will formly apply to ADeV Board not to meet with somebody ..."
I really read:
"Besides this I will ask my boss to drop that meetings - or maybe my boss asked
me to write this?"

Which idiot will accuse a person of nazi because of a joke?
I do racist and sexist jokes all the time - and I'm far from being racist or
sexist.
The other line from the sketch that apply here is "you don't have sense
of humour"

* 40 minutes later to continue the saga the boss (Norbert) came and wrote that
our wiki is threatened in germany - what a bad country to keep a wiki if is
forbidden to laugh
Norbert saved our wiki from being sued deleting a joke from a malaysian guy!

* 3 hours later Teo (another Norbert's employee) wrote a message to pull tears
from our eyes.
Teo, I almost cry, until you said "I am sure that nobody can stop anybody to
have their personal affinities" - because you were just chanting the Mark idiotic
accusation that a joke defines the personality of a guy - sorry, did I
say personality? Ah yes, I remember, the preferred game for Teo, tagging
personalities.

* The real thing here that I can read between lines is that Norbert was uncomfortable
about meeting Redhuan (what a CC and ADeV leader!) - and he sent his employees
to open this saga to have excuse to write red1 "I'm cancelling the meeting with
you, unreliable nazi" :-D (just joking the mail said different)

To complete this saga I can just imagine this chat between them:
Norbert: You started this
Redhuan: No, you did, you invaded Poland" [1]

BTW, seems like Germany invaded Poland :-D
I was forbidden by a German "democracy" to release 3E_WebServices files (coming
from a Poland company)

Let's keep the humour high :DDDDD

Am I allowed to put this link here?
http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Adolf_Hitler
Or maybe sourceforge servers are located in Germany and I'm going 3y to jail
too?
Führer Redhuan, we need to ask community to bring cigarettes for us in prison.

___________
Carlos Ruiz

YouTube - Videos from this email

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/5/11

By: teo_sarca

Hehe Carlos, good to see u in a good mood.

I need to admit that this way of humor is a little bit strange. Is like the
child who is farting in public and is starting to laugh alone and then is astonished
why nobody is laughing about his joke because when he was with his closest friends
he was doing this everytime and everybody was laughing.

See, so it's allowed to fart with your friends but don't do this in public,
and here in particular ;)

I've tried to explain it more simplistic.

Hope you understand now,
Teo Sarca

PS: stop watching telenovela, you are starting to build stupid scenarios,
AGAIN!!!
PS2: please don't start again with personality tagging, because is starting
to not be funny anymore.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: petejoe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Quote:

//begin

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law
of Nazi Analogies)[1][2] is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2]
that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows
longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches
1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online
discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some
point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the
Nazis.

Godwin's law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the
use of arguments in the widespread Reductio ad Hitlerum form.

//end

I'll just leave this here.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: xolali

Hi,
@Norbert and employees
This is fast becoming a ridiculous situation. I think u metas guys are trying
too hard to assert yourself forcefully on the community. Reading btn the lines..
you being pissed because someone called red1 the founder of this project( which
he is.. everyone knows that even JJ acknowledged that in his blog)... you trying
to twist Red1 to surrendered domains so you can complete your takeover agenda.
You should know by now that you have lost community confidence. Your attitudes,
remarks, nerve is astonishing. Its getting worse with every response from you.
I think as suggested by Thomas, YOU shouldnt be a part of this transition since
as a leader you have shown that your personal preferences and ambitions supercedes
that of the community. You should take a back seat and allow Kai, Red1 and Mmckay
to deal with this mess.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@CC

The unfounded attacks should be condemned by the CC, regardless of the direction
from which the attack may come. Unfortunately this is not the impression that
the CC gives.

CC is a neutral guarantor of the good of the community, something he not does
more. I deeply regret.

Why all the attacks against Carlos? I still do not understand! but are you crazy
or what? you really want the death of the ADempiere project. If this continues,
it goes straight to the wall

I begin to think that you really want the death of this project and you have
no consideration for members of this community.

Stop to find any cans excuses (it will not work here , members of this community
are not fooled).

"Policy of scorched earth!" That's exactly what you are doing and I regret
that the members of the CC allows and encourages by their silence in this project.
is exactly the policy of scorched earth.

I can't believe that we arrived at this situation

Regards,
Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: kthiemann

Hi,

as far as I know Mark is not an employee of Norbert but both are the owners
of metas. Of course I guess that they talk to each other :)

Best regards,
Karsten

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: red1

Even though i did not start this war, i can at least give my detractors more
regrets. Godwin's Law might come in handy in future losing debates. I researched
and found this [url=http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1911626,00.html]
Curious Case of the Nazi Gnome[/url] that came out in Time Magazine by
the German artist Ottmar Hörl who gave a crisp answer in his trial by
media, "I would probably have been killed by the Nazis if I'd dared to depict
(this) in 1942,"".

I hope that is not the year my bazaar friends wants to throw me back to. :) .

We are not only veering from the Open Source ERP map, but even further from
basic freedom to create and share goodness. I shall return to read again my
Eric Raymond's articles now, before such bibles also get banned. :-)

Alas, My Rose of Freedom. How can I truly love you; when I bled from your
thorns?
- Copyleft (c) 2011 Redhuan D. Oon


_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: croo

you being pissed because someone called red1 the founder of this
project

From what is written I can understand some of the confusion about this but let's
get one thing 100% clear.

Redhuan is not THE founder of Adempiere. His contributions to Adempiere has
been very substantial.
But he is A founder of the project not THE founder. There were many people involved
in the discussion and the initial creation of the project.

His forums were used for the fork debate because we could not discuss it in
the compiere forums sourceforge where most of the founders knew each other from.

He was nominated by all as leader of the project - but this role was one of
chairman [of a Council] not dictator.
I repeat his contributions were/are substantial but he has no more right to
the project than many many others.

colin

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

Hi All,

@Karsten,

Everyone knows that CC / PMC, AD ev, ABC Consultants and others are the same.
all power is concentrated in them. Or you do not see anything ;)

As I already said members of the community are not fooled

@Colin

Why do you not ask Jorg Janke the founder of Compiere, he will tell you who
is the founder of ADempiere :)

Regards,
Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: red1

Damn! I did not see the last few posts after Petejoe. I will like to calm things
down again.

@Xolali said,
you being pissed because someone called red1 the founder of this project(
which he is.. everyone knows that even JJ acknowledged that in his blog
.
Now, though i would like this title, who wouldn't?, i would not use it or even
say it is true (even if it is, big deal).

The bazaar rests on two pristine principles of Meritocracy and Peerocracy. The
first means if you are good, you take the lead, and assume leadership. Eric
Raymond pointed out in his pet project where he gave the Project Admin over
to a newbie contributor when he could no longer keep the project going due to
his moving away from it.

And in it is the 2nd principle. Others would not have gone to show interest
in his project if he established too strong a position and taking up all the
spotlight. See how dangerous this becomes. Even for a top contributor as Carlos,
by been top can breed alot of backlash. Carlos, you got to tone down. Don't
be too perfect. Show you have weaknesses. Drop dead once in a while *sighs*.

Same with me. I am on cloud 9 when someone call me [s]The Leader[/s] a peer
with high merit. But that is it. Back to the hacking and pillow fights. I truly
love it when Thomas Bayen came driving in his Motor Home! :O and drove for 7
hours, sleeping overnight along the way just to see me and [s]worship[/s] me
i mean pick my mind on ADempiere.

I get more kudos from showing off ADempiere and everyone's works from Armen
Rizal right to Victor Perez, i love them all and am proud of them. (Sorry if
your alhpabet name falls outside A and V). I feel very awkward when someone
clapped at my words or title (yucks!). Look, i joked about my title all the
time cos it is silly!!! I even put the image of that Jedi in my user page. I
put Darth Vader, and whatever sinister figures i can find into it. I do not
even mind Teo Sarca, enhancing my BD label. I think it is more politically correct.
Of course my followers will crush his head :-)

Many times i say i am no Linus or BD. I just enjoyed the [s] panic, world-wide,
whenever i rise up and come close to the microphone [/s] joy of sharing and
making someone say, "Awesome!!!".

But, peerocracy and meritocracy is lots and lots of fun - of course you need
some sense of humour to be in my [s] holy[/s] presence or else i will burn you
on the stake.

So please, bitte! This is not about me. Kai is right. It has grown beyond me.
It is about the code, damn it code. How many and how much work have we really
put into it? We must honour the top contributors. Beg them to return. Every
moment lost is ADempiere lost. Our enemies have breached our walls.

Let me quip you something Heng Sin said to me (sorry HS for not asking your
Highness first).

One day i was walking with him alone the corridors of his palace (just an office
space), i asked him what in ADempiere is the best that even our competitors,
Compiere or Openbravo are losing to?

And Heng Sin thought for a while and then look up at me and replied,

"I believe it is the ZK Ajax UI Interface"

Man... you should look at the grin and awe, and worry on my face! There are
more stories from the forbidden palace, but i don't want to bore you.

Please, do enjoy this passion and project. It belongs to all of us - trolls
and ghosts included.

red1

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: mark_o

Hello Red1,
can you please define what you men with "detractors". It can have several meanings
when translated and I don't want to choose the wrong one before expressing my
answer.

Thanks in advance.

Greetings
Mark

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: croo

@Colin

Why do you not ask Jorg Janke the founder of Compiere, he will tell you who
is the founder of ADempiere :)
I don't need to. He wasn't there I was
- were you?

colin

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@colin

> I don't need to. He wasn't there I was - were you?

Yes I was there, it's not because I didn't take part in founding the ADempiere
project that I was not there.

http://www.compieresource.com/2010/06/a ... -consona-t
o-revitalize-compiere.html

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: croo

I don't need to read any Compiere propaganda thank you.
Now, you believe everything JJ writes?
If you were there you'd not need to read what JJ writes and Redhuan has himself
said he did not found adempiere so stop wasting your time.

colin

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: red1

Hope you all catch my drift that i just want to be myself, in my own skin. Steve
Jobs even said that when he died, "Don't waste your life living someone else
life".

Just last month, I was staying with another contributor in Hamburg, and i began
to notice that when he was serving me coffee, he will address me as "Master".

Would that be acceptable in Germany? How about the continent of Africa? :-)

Anyway back to how the bazaar can work for you. You see, when you take the red
pill
, you are free to go anywhere in the world and work due to the power
and spread of hi-speed internet access. And your travels can be subsidised because
there will be someone who is willing to pay for part of your trip or just throw
you into his garage for couple of days with daily rations if you just work together
with them on their respective pet projects.

Since they are all open source contributors, you have no worry that your effort
is wasted as each thing you do together gets thrown back into the pot. And often
they share their pie with you (if you look like a hungry dog. OK, make that
an angry dog).

For example in Hamburg we started to port the Request model from ADempiere into
the OpenbraboPOS (wait, did i say openbravo? Oh yes i did!:) ), and we only
scratch the surface, but at least we learnt from each other.

Also usually your host will take you around to his temple i mean activity and
you get to truly see life in a wide spectrum. This is a win-win-win-win situation.
You win cos you have fun and learnt, your host wins due to the same, the project
wins, your business wins cos everyone worships you i mean us, yes, i said us.
Did i say worship? No i mean awe, and call us really cool people.

So was it lots of fun in Bavaria country. I never know that Germany has such
traditional culture that is highly communal and close knit. Of course i went
over to Austria and one female supporter who was from Munich said to me, "What?"
and shook her head when i mentioned this.

One day, i can languish on my death bed and finish my memoirs of all this and
tell my great grand-children what freedom was to me (They probably yawn out
loud). That is if i do not get arrested earlier and have to write it faster
to sell for bail money! :-)

OK, i am going to stop writing and go out to play in the snow. I will make a
snowman.

Then i will return and tyrannize you all some more with open source stories.

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! :-)

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@colin

Whether you like it or not, Red1 will stay the founder and historic leader of
ADempiere, i was there and now I'll take your advice, I'll stop wasting my time.

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: croo

Liking or not liking something is irrelevant and does not change facts.

colin

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@colin

> Liking or not liking something is irrelevant and does not change facts.

If it's for you as you write that, yes I agree!

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: croo

Well you'll just have to disagree with redhuan on that then.

colin

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@colin

> Well you'll just have to disagree with redhuan on that then.

If you want, YES!

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Mark, from Google, I found
http://zenhabits.net/best-8-ways-to-dea ... etractors/

@Red1, c'est parfait !

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: mjudd

Hi @Raouf,

What if you were wrong?

I wondered how you were implementing advice 4, 5 and 6 from your post ?

I'm really sorry Raouf, but I don't remember you there at the beginning either.
I don't think it really matters whether you were there, or not, or if you were
silent or not. What matters is re-writing the history and I think your memory
may be failing you in this topic.

Mike

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Mike

> What if you were wrong?

the answer is : 1/sqrt(2)*(| founder > + | founder >)

No I don't think my memory fails me on this. the most important is we come to
unlock this situation.

Raouf.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: rvergara

Raouf,

A lot of history rewriting tries out there.

True facts:

- Victor Perez was the person that triggered the fork
- Red1 was hesitant about the fork, but he was conviced in the process and allowed
the fork discussion
- It was me who suggested Red1 to take "temporary project leadership"

Can I suggest that we assign a temporary project leader role to Red1
so he can take the first baby steps in order to get the ball rolling? we can
decide on project structure on a further stage.


Interestingly Red1 took this project leadership until citizens voted for a project
structure.

I did not see you there, but I assume there were plenty of watchers around.

Regards

Ramiro

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Mike

To make simple : Schrödinger's cat is not dead ! ;)

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Ramiro

As we say, history is written by the victors and each one has his truth

After that Red1 is a dictator, Nazi, not the founder of the ADempiere project,
what's else ! it's ridiculous

As I said above, most importatnt is to come out of this crisis and to stop with
who is right and who is wrong.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: teo_sarca

> As I said above, most importatnt is to come out of this crisis and to stop
with who is right and who is wrong.

I would say that joining forces is the only way to stop this crisis. I mean,
talk talk talk it's fine, but after that some amount of work would do the trick
;)

Ready for that?

Best regards,
Teo Sarca

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: rvergara

Raouf,

I was writing facts (as they are written) not judging anybody.

Ramiro

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: red1

I am happy with Ramiro's account as true
depictions of the events
leading to the fork. I am even more contented of his entry into my
guestbook. I have locked that up so that
his words remain lasting. :)

Muchas Gracias R.V.
red1

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

ha ha ha ..... Excellent! http://www.red1.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=931

"Redde Caesari quae sunt Caesaris, et quae sunt Dei Deo."

Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: teo_sarca

"Brebis qui bêle perd sa goulée."

Still hoping you will stop trolling and better help.

Best regards,
Teo Sarca

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: red1

Veni, vidi, vici
=#|:-)

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Teo

I know you do not understand the proverb, it does not matter

Making the merit of a thing to its true author.

French proverb "Il faut parfois savoir rendre à César ce qui est à César".
mean Sometimes you have to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Regards,
Raouf

P/S : I reassure you I have more work today ( multi-threading ) and the day
is not over.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Red1,

Now you're "Julius Caesar", why not !

Regards,
Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: red1

And how did Caesar die? :>

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/6/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Red1,

oh, the History teaches us that on 15 March in the year 44 BC. he was assassinated
by 23 stab wounds by the conspirators who planned their attack and they killed
him at the beginning of the meeting of the Senate in the Curia Pompeii.

"Tu quoque mi fili"

Regards,
Raouf

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/7/11

By: raoufmazouz

@Red1

> And how did Caesar die? :>

Simply put, that the conspirators were elected senators ;)

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/7/11

By: red1

@Aleks - pleassseeee, let me post just this one last time! :)

@Raouf,
Well, i got this version: Caesar brought glory to Rome, rose too fast up in
power, too famous, unassailable and thus a threat to anyone in the run for the
top to have any chance at becoming Emperor. Between glory to Rome and personal
'group' interests, guess which comes first?

But this story is common all over the world since before the Old Testament.

In Malaysia we got a famous story from Temasek (former Singapore) where at one
time the Sultanate there was besieged with swordfish jumping inland and causing
havoc. The standard procedure was to stand by the shore in a straight line with
your bums to the sea and that killed people also.

One day a young buy asked them what they are doing and offered solution which
is to put banana tree trunks all along the shore to trap the swordfish and when
they are stuck, come out to kill them.

That saved Temasik island. So the Sultan wanted to reward him. But the advisors
around the Sultan said to the Sultan,

"Sire, this boy is too smart. If he grows up he can overtake your kingdom."

So the Sultan have the boy promptly put to death.

OF COURSE this is not implying as @Aleks said that anyone is Caesar here. Caesar
is long dead, kaput in 44 BC. But today some laws and many maxims came from
his time, same like here some came from WWII.

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.
But you already know that! Pardon!

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/7/11

By: teo_sarca

Hi,

I would like do make a final call and i will try to not put it emotionally (as
I as accused in past) even if I am an emotional machine.

Guys, let's focus to solve problems that exist and not inventing problems that
does not exist and then solving them in such a heroically way.

If you Red1, are so concerned about code quality, I would like to tell you that
you are not the only one. In our current teams we have people that are knowing
what quality code means, and they proved that along the time.
As a side note, looking in repositories which you are using to give an example
to everyone, i also saw some commits which personally i would reject without
doubt. Ofcouse there are also a lot of good code too.

If you have some strong doubts about the people here that don't know what quality
code i think you should stick to the facts and i also think you should join
the teams to make it even better.
I would be happy to answer to your doubts.

Please keep in mind that ADempiere Best Practices document was founded by people
that are now working in current teams, along with many more others functionalities
and patterns that improved code stability.

Regarding your adjutants, well what to say. I would like to give them same advice
i gave to Emiliano which i am happy he was a man of honor. It's better to make
your way in this project by continuous contributions and consistent effort.
This is how people that you are blaming so hard were doing all this time. Because
if you join in a putsch, closing your eyes and throwing with shit in everybody
and hoping that everything would turn on your side and you will have a nice
place at the end is not honorable. And in this case, i think we are not sitting
on the same table nor drinking the same wine.

To conclude, with the risk to repeat my self, i think there is only one way
to solve this. Joining and not dividing. I am sure that if you really want to
help this project and come with contributions, nobody will refuse you.
More, if you contribute, no matter what will happen in future, your contributions
will be there and i think nobody will discard them. Don't use this putsch as
a pretext for not contributing.

I think the message is clear, "wanna join, then JOIN, wanna sit, then SIT!".
Now you don't have any excuse.

Best regards,
Teo Sarca

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/7/11

By: red1

@Teo,
Absolutely. That is correct. I do want to learn code and work together. But
you hardly commented on my code (except the last one on IDGenerator which i
am impressed, so much that i am stuck with awe and still have that piece of
code in my pocket :) .. I wish to be as good as you!).

I commit code quite regularly and quite actively (I know most of it sucks and
is lousy and i welcome peer review. Like when Linus first started he argued
with Prof Tanenbaum that his is not to expectations, he just want to release
early for peer review and bla,bla ). He probably did most of his commits in
pyjamas.

That is so bazaar-like and unstructured. In 3 words, i hate 'meetings' where
99% of the time is wasteful shit (not all!). I feel happy with open forums,
trackers, threads, mailing lists. I love answering questions where i know the
answers, to brag and show off.

But i did not start this war. :)

red1

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/7/11

By: red1

@Teo,
But you do not seem to like me to be in politics :D

If i didn't i wouldn't have started the [s]F**king[/s] Forking Debate and continue
sticking with Jorg Janke and just wait for his code and eat it.

(OK, putting on some thick political skin suit with fire-proof spray)
Imagine. If there was no little farm in the jungle of Malaysia with enough online
content to make the Forking Debate. Where will ADempiere be? Probably JJ would
say, "Ah, there goes the 7th fork, like those 6 before them."
(Taking off brag suit)

Wait, wait.. that is so 44BC in cyber-time.

Today is a fantastic time in our lives. Where web-technologies march left and
right and past thru us.

The lessons of the past is we need not just a community, nor a structured committee.
We need great inspiration and passion for all, to attract the best man out there
to be here. I don't give a shit if he is against my limitations, language tone
or religion. I come to know the best, and i wanted the best so badly, and now
i see it slipping away.

I never advertised for this job.

Think about it for a sec.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/7/11

By: teo_sarca

Hehe Red1, you bring me some nostalgies talking about Andrew Tanenbaum, long
time ago when i was reading about distributed operating systems and wishing
to implement one. I even succeeded to have a small junk code which was booting
from a floppy and at that point my operating systems developer career ended :)))
It's funny sometimes from where you start and to what you arrive.

To make a comparative example (which i also learned from one of Tanenbaum's
books, hope to remember correctly after so many years) i know that we need to
maximize the throughput (productive work) which theoretically is equal with
channel's capacity (number of people that can carry the work). But this is ideal,
because in practice we have overheads given by transmission unit headers,
synchronizations and re-transmissions (those are the meetings, organizations
etc). I know sometimes is boring and does not look as a productive work, but
without these, no transmission can be realized.

I've experienced that so many times, i saw the power of anarchy, from technical
perspective too and sometimes i was so pissed off seeing how ADempiere code
is transforming in a spaghetti code. That's why I defense so eager our current
principles which i thought we had a common agreement.

Having a "channel" dictator is also not a good solution, because even with very
good intentions his protocols design and architecture can fail.
This is how a lot of protocols failed and IPv4 took the place as a common standard
on OSI layer 3.

Red1, you know that you have great motivational skills, which I sincerely appreciate
it, but please motivate the people to contribute in a right direction, not only
by words but also by facts, constructive and not destructive.

It's funny how people of which I saw almost none contribution are now full of
hate, condemn everything that was done, destroy everything that they don't
understand, rewrite the history and make enthusiastic plans of what do to next.
I saw this behavior in in history, quite fresh, but i will let u figure out
about what I am talking but I will also advice you to read also the consequences
of such an approach.
Also read how some of their leaders were "decapitated" after their success by
their own people because if you rely your system on such moral rules, i think
you shall not expect more.
Please think for a while on this and think that you are searching for respect,
is better to search on people with whom you started and which know better your
work.

I still want to believe that nobody wants the bad of this project.
I think nobody is taking your place from ADempiere inception, but think also
about the people that worked hardly at those times to make it happen. It was
like a nice puzzle, where without a piece, the puzzle is not completed.
It seems that most of founders are not in your "gang". More, those people are
widespreaded, from different cultures, different languages but it seems that
they found a common ground and a common aim.
So, what about them, are they all wrong now?

And what is more funny (if not injurious), is they even don't communicate by
private mails, almost at all, as it was suggested.
Even with my colleagues , even if we talk daily, the discussions about what
is happening here were almost ZERO.
Putting myself in your shoes, i think is hard to believe, but you can have my
word, if this counts.

Obviously, project did not evolved as fast as we expected, but at least we designed
structure, procedures which i believe are common sense. And I believe those
are mandatory to make the project evolve to it's next step which shall make
ADempiere the defacto ERP in open source world. I small group of people can
do it because simply they don't have enough energy to do it and because they
can not cover all domains that a complex application like the one we have it
now.
Setting back on how it was, means to repeat the same mistakes that we did in
the past.

Comparation with Linus and Linux, i think is wrong, because we just simply did
not start in the same way as he started. None of us put in the seed of ADempiere
and no one can claim it's rights and the "dictator" chair because, simply is
not meritocratic nor logical. If you think we need heroes so badly (which i
actually i doubt), then build a heroes square with statues on same size.

I hope my post will make you think a bit and maybe you will chain your energy
in a constructive way, because we need that so bad and there is so much work
to do.

Best regards,
Teo Sarca

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/7/11

By: red1

@Teo. I have never seen you posted such a long message that i am now worried.
I leave you to conclude what that means :)

Allow me to write you privately on your post. Just want to be iterative, short
answers, but faster and furiouser Hope it is ok. :)

_____________________________________________________________________________________
12/7/11

By: teo_sarca

@Red1, i got your email, but i think you can publish the mail because I see
nothing personal inside. Just for the sake of openness.

PS: ok, maybe you can drop the first line from that email, just to not do the
same mistake again ;)

Best regards,
Teo Sarca
globalqss
Senior
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:15 am
Location: Bogotá, Colombia

Re: Thread deleted -> Is Red1 just Dictator or Nazi?

Postby red1 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:05 pm

Thanks Carlos. Somehow i enjoy reading this as it paints part of my spontaneous tour of the global community that took me to 7 countries in 2 continents in what will be 5 months when i return home on March 1. I learnt a lot, met alot, seen alot, ate alot, laughed alot, flown alot, surprised alot. I have lived life to the fullest, and be all that can be.

When i returned home to my family (in the farm where this forum was born in 2004) i hope to recuperate quickly for my next adventure, perhaps with another community in another project. As far as here is concerned, its circle of trust is complete, and the world is free to choose.
red1
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2759
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:01 pm
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia


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